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Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

  • 1.  Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Thu December 26, 2024 11:34 AM

    There is a possibility that societal biases unintentionally seep into the learning algorithms. I do not have real world examples to share right now. Bias is definitely in a big challenge. 



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    Ramkumar Yaragarla
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  • 2.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Fri December 27, 2024 12:50 PM

     Bias can manifest in ways such as biased training data, biased decision-making processes, or a societal bias unintentionally entered an algorithm   A couple examples include Facial Recognition however there are no know instances in the past few years that I researched. In order to mitigate Continuous monitoring is needed, Developers need to be accountable for biased outcomes via transparency and accountability, use of diverse training data. If I am incorrect, please correct me.  Does anyone else have more feedback on this issue?



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    Thomas Mertens
    Dead End Fence
    Operator
    Medford, Wi U.S.A (Summer)
    Florida (Winter) U.S.A.
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  • 3.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Fri December 27, 2024 10:23 PM

    Yes sir. You are right on this -  "Continuous monitoring is needed, Developers need to be accountable for biased outcomes via transparency and accountability". 



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    Ramkumar Yaragarla
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  • 4.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Thu January 02, 2025 09:03 AM

    Unfortunately, humanity needs much more than that - we are facing a massive and severe capability gap - 



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    Weiyee In
    CIO
    Protego Trust Bank
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  • 5.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Thu January 02, 2025 08:53 AM

    the models are designed and developed by human being - so there isalways the risk for inherent bias; even with genAI beginning to demonstrate deception and malice it is part of the same inherent bias



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    Weiyee In
    CIO
    Protego Trust Bank
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  • 6.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Thu January 02, 2025 08:58 AM

    there is also inherent or implicit bias because ai models are designed or data is collated and curated by human beings .. there is also the bigger issues for genAI deception now 



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    Weiyee In
    CIO
    Protego Trust Bank
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  • 7.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Mon December 30, 2024 09:57 AM

    All AI is trained, thus the information used to train the AI Engine can influence the algorithms.

    Asked the AI Engine of Facebook several questions about being Bias and received some interesting results. After several interactions the Facebook AI provided a response that seemed to indicate that Bias was inevitable due to the "Approved" information sources and those responsible for "Training" the AI Engines!      

    With all the Marketing Banter on AI and every ISV selling solutions rushing to provide AI enhancements. What will happen if in the rush human mistakes are made that taint the results?

    AI has the promise of being a great tool when used correctly. 

    We all need to - Verify before Trusting the results!

    Will be interesting to see where AI ends up...  



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    Steve Able
    Director of Strategy and Architecture
    Adaptigent formally GT Software, Inc.

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  • 8.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Mon December 30, 2024 11:48 PM

    That's true.  I agree on the biases that you have pointed out. It's not just within Social media like Facebook, but even with the prompt text that we enter on the chat. The way you write the prompts, the text you type in, for example: an image generation with certain text prompt has a significant impact on the output. Not all fellow beings in the human world are artistically descriptive or creative  with rich vocabulary can provide to get the right result that was desired. So it is a challenge regardless. Biases will exist and here to stay.  AI needs to train well to understand you as an individual.  It takes time and patience for that, I guess. 



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    Ramkumar Yaragarla
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  • 9.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Wed January 01, 2025 07:11 PM

    Thanks for raising this important issue, Ram. Bias is particularly pronounced in training data. One place is training data on gender. Our research shows many such instances for example recognition algorithms have an error rate of 34.7% for darker-skinned women, compared to less than 1% for lighter-skinned men. Simialalry, AI recruitment tools were found to downgrade resumes with the word "woman," such as "women\u2019s soccer team captain," leading to biased hiring decisions.

    IBM offers several tools and platforms to address bias in AI models, including Instruct Labs, AI Fairness 360 (AIF360), and other Watson solutions. These tools focus on improving transparency, fairness, and accountability in machine learning systems.To address bias using IBM tools, we could start with Instruct Labs for hands-on training on fairness techniques, use AI Fairness 360 (AIF360) to detect and mitigate bias with fairness metrics and algorithms, and leverage Watson Studio for automated bias checking, explainable AI, and ongoing monitoring of deployed models. Together, these tools ensure transparent, fair, and accountable AI systems.



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    Noor Aftab
    Program Lead
    Amazon
    Seattle, WA
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  • 10.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Thu January 02, 2025 11:03 AM

    Thank you Noor that was very informative and useful.  The error rates you mentioned are not acceptable. I am sure the IBM solutions you mentioned can help tackle bias. The likes of IBM's AI Fairness 360 and Google's What-If Tool should and will help developers uncover hidden biases. I feel, it is also the representation. Datasets should represent diverse demographics and scenarios. It is a comprehensive effort. Inclusion and ethics in decision making is crucial. As you rightly pointed out, AI needs focus on improving transparency, fairness, and accountability in machine learning systems.   One unbiased scenario I can think of is when the decision world revolves around numbers, typically in  Finance- involving personal finance and investment decisions. We can build to a certain degree prediction levels on the future trajectory objectively.      

     I will keep this post open in case somebody else wants to jump in with their 2 cents. 



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    Ramkumar Yaragarla
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  • 11.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Tue January 07, 2025 08:48 AM
    These tools as they are human built, while helpful, cannot completely eliminate bias, as they may have their own limitations and biases built into them so relying on tools like IBM's AI Fairness 360 or Google's What-If Tool is insufficient to fully address the problem.  Also your suggestion that finance scenarios involving numbers are unbiased or less biased as they are the segment that is being scrutinized most heavily at the moment. Algorithmic bias can definitely occur in financial contexts, evidenced by regulators looking into discriminating against certain groups in credit decisions or investment opportunities, etc.  





  • 12.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Fri January 03, 2025 10:20 AM

    I've read many of the responses here, and I am not sure where to begin.  So it might be best to just throw out some ideas and thoughts on the topic here:

    • AI models are biased - every single one of them.  So are automobiles (requires a certain height, dexterity), scissors (left handed?), pencils (requires hand dexterity), and just about everything else in the world.  YOU are biased - you pick life partners and friends and romantic interests based on your own "biases" with respect to appearance, intelligence, personality, etc.  The key point to remember when discussing bias and AI is that you should focus on eliminating "destructive" biases.
    • Most biases in AI models are the results of the training data provided.  So any discussion of AI bias needs to FOCUS on data curation.
    • Software developers do not do model training in a typical scenario.  Saying "Developers need to ensure..." or anything similar is just a way to push responsibility for the issue to someone else.  The problem needs to be owned by the ENTIRE product team (business, design, software, etc.).
    • IBM produces tools and methodologies that you can follow that will allow you to manage these biases - but you can't just throw money/tools at the problem and expect it to go away.  It also takes oversight.  Just like the manager of a restaurant (or any organization that produces some kind of product or service) - you need to oversee and monitor what you team is producing, and monitor the quality of your product.
    • AI models only know what they are trained on.  Stop thinking "AI is always right", or "AI is an impartial judge of facts/truth".  AI is just like anyone else - you ingest a bunch of information, and then when presented with a situation, you provide the optimal response, given your past experiences.  It doesn't reason (and if it did, it would STILL be a prisoner of it's "learned reality" - just like you and I), and it doesn't think.  Most of AI models are based on mathematical (statistical) models and approaches....
    • If it helps - use this picture to help yourself.  Most people think of an AI model as an "Einstein" - a huge brain that absorbs everything and provides infallible responses.  In reality, it is more like a five year old child, who can do some amazing things when taught repetitively on a few targeted concepts (colors, numbers, alphabet), but that is limited by their lack of real-world experience.


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    Daniel Toczala
    Community Leader and Customer Success Manager - Watson
    dtoczala@us.ibm.com
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  • 13.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Mon January 06, 2025 09:26 PM

    I am involved in creating AI product quality guidelines in Japan, and I agree that bias in AI is a critical issue.
    https://www.qa4ai.jp/

    At the same time, I came across a research paper discussing how AI was used to teach Go to students, which resulted in eliminating the performance gap between male and female players. This makes me wonder if there are cases where, even with inherent biases, AI might perform better than humans in certain contexts.
    Can Artificial Intelligence Improve Gender Equality? Evidence from a Natural Experiment



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    miho ezawa
    Department Manager
    CRESCO LTD.
    0357698080
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  • 14.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Tue January 07, 2025 09:37 AM

    So, assuming the use of a computer one may also assume an AI Interface requires needs while the more traditional computer's 'thoughts' would be submitted in parameters of wants.



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    J A Hansen Esq IV
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  • 15.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Wed January 08, 2025 08:17 AM
    I think really working on bringing more women into the field will be the best way to help with the gender bias. Not just as marketing or PR people but as programmers and software engineers etc. Also developing a career path that involves understanding the back end enough to do reviews for bias in data collection and algorithms as you go and then provide them to developers . 





  • 16.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Fri January 10, 2025 08:32 AM

    Totally agree - there are also greater issues we have to collectively consider as humanity 

    https://community.ibm.com/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=5d671f4d-beed-170e-a890-a0f4b417c9ca&forceDialog=0

    a short note I wrote/published yesterday



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    Weiyee In
    CIO
    Protego Trust Bank
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  • 17.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Fri January 10, 2025 09:57 AM

    Thank you for sharing such an excellent report! The insights in Proactive AI Governance are incredibly thorough and relevant.

    Your analysis and recommendations are proving to be highly valuable as we work on developing our group's AI governance guidelines. It's great to see such a well-rounded perspective on tackling the risks and complexities of generative AI.

    Looking forward to seeing more of your work in the future. Thanks again for this amazing contribution!



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    miho ezawa
    Department Manager
    CRESCO LTD.
    0357698080
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  • 18.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Sun January 19, 2025 11:59 AM
    Thank you Miho-jan 
    there will be another related on coming this week - and another I am currently working with some friends in Sorbonne on ;-)





  • 19.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted 22 days ago

    Just put out another short white paper - 

    Who are you really? - IBM Z and LinuxONE Community



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    Weiyee In
    CIO
    Protego Trust Bank
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  • 20.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Fri January 10, 2025 09:43 AM

    Thank you for your comment. I couldn't agree more. In engineering-especially in AI-diversity is essential for spotting any anomalies or biases in data, generated outputs, and classification results.



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    miho ezawa
    Department Manager
    CRESCO LTD.
    0357698080
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  • 21.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Fri January 10, 2025 10:08 AM
    I totally agree - pls see the article I posted - there are some other major issues that we as humanity need to deal with for genAI governance ... the sleeper agent, fake alignment, selective compliance of LLMs etc...





  • 22.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Tue January 07, 2025 09:37 AM

    Considering the possibility of an AI network one must reuse data once conceived as unusable.

    Why this is raises the possibility of extrapolating bias.

    Without such cognitive processes we exist as an AI Entrepreneur.

    What is considered as 'Artificial' in fact has 'some' biological connections.



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    J A Hansen Esq IV
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  • 23.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Mon January 13, 2025 04:48 AM

    Isn't every model based on documents written by humans? So yes we can filter on irregulaties. But how do we know that the content of the document is with true or reliable facts?  A clear screening of each document which is embedded in the model should be necessary, but is that possible? 



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    Oscar Dubbeldam
    CEO / CTO
    Migrato
    Strijen
    +31650734796
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  • 24.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Tue January 14, 2025 07:15 PM

    Investigation is critical.



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    J A Hansen Esq IV
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  • 25.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Wed January 15, 2025 12:54 AM

    It's entirely possible for training data or documents to be both true and biased.

    Many organizations that generated data gathered of the last few decades have been operating with social or institutional biases in place, so the bias ends up embedded into the data.

    Question is, how do you remove the bias from the data without also removing its value as training data?

    The point of training it to get the AI to make fair decisions based only on legitimate grounds.  But how many elements in the data are truly unbiased?  Names? Culturally biased. Addresses? Often culturally and/or socio-economically biased? Gender? Maybe, although non-conforming values will be scarce (and thus probably biased)  Income? Socio-economically biased. Strip all of that out and you're left with 'someone asked or a loan', which means you might as well make the decision at random...



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    Mik Clarke
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  • 26.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Wed January 15, 2025 07:56 AM
    Edited by Daniel Toczala Wed January 15, 2025 07:59 AM

    Fantastic observation Mik - which leads us to the core of any "predictive" AI system.  The AI system which is used to predict things (like loan applicability) is SUPPOSED to be biased.  It's supposed to choose or predict which group a particular individual will fall into.  The key is in eliminating biases that do not (or should not) impact the prediction, and only considering the things that DO bias a prediction.  These are the factors that most heavily influence a particular prediction.  In your AI model predicting loan payment satisfaction, there is a bias towards individuals with larger incomes, since those people tend to have more available resources to pay off a loan.  A Data Scientist may call this a feature of the model, and they will look for a combination of features and weights that will combine to make the model more accurate - more biased - towards choosing individuals who can pay back a loan.

    So be careful when discussing bias in AI models.  Some of it may be inherent in the data, some of it may come from organizations or societal institutions, and some of it just "human" bias (I like people who read my blog posts and articles....).  The point here is that you should worry about, and always consider, bias in your data and models.  You just shouldn't follow that path to it's very vanilla and un-useful end.  You want fairness and a lack of discrimination - what I might call a "known set of acceptable biases".

    Watsonx environments will give you the tools and allow you to track this "known set of acceptable biases" over time, and will allow you to track and detect things like model drift.  It's important to do this - AI will never be perfect, but we can make it more transparent and continually seek to improve what it does for us.



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    Daniel Toczala
    Community Leader and Customer Success Manager - Watson
    dtoczala@us.ibm.com
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  • 27.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Mon January 20, 2025 07:42 AM

    @Daniel Toczala - agree with your comment - in many predictive models, some form of bias is not only present but necessary, especially in finance - because we need them designed to discriminate based on relevant factors that influence the outcome.  Precision/Recall - Accuracy is NOT the same as ethics and fairness.  Eliminating irrelevant bias is easier but the harder issue is to decide on ethics and fairness .. to your point/example on loans it is more than relevance- a model that accurately assesses risk while also ensuring fairness across different demographic groups for loans is more an ethical and regulatory issue because equal access to credit is not always the same as predicting loan repayment or debt to income ratios.



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    Weiyee In
    CIO
    Protego Trust Bank
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  • 28.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Thu January 16, 2025 01:35 PM
    It's all a question of concept, when the use is not distorted and shielded from theoretical conspiracies we can go much further with AI and I dare say that soon we will have the concept of machines teaching man.





  • 29.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Mon January 20, 2025 07:32 AM

    A genAI LLM is only an inference model - and every language model is trained on documents written by humans, and fundamentally as AI models may also be able to generate coherent text, they don't inherently distinguish between true and false information we might have systems that are started by training on  large-scale datasets like Wikipedia for training, which have inconsistent data governance, can lead to the propagation of inaccuracies or biases.  I have been to many of the meetings with large dataset organizations and their data governance is atrocious so we might be amplifying instead.



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    Weiyee In
    CIO
    Protego Trust Bank
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  • 30.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Tue January 21, 2025 02:45 AM

    The big problem with LLMs is their 'desire' to give you the answer that you asked it for - even if it has to generate plausible data to support it.  Ask the question the wrong way and it'll inject some bias for you, even if there wasn't any in its training data.  Everything an LLM writes is fictional; sometimes it just happens to match the real world.



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    Mik Clarke
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  • 31.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted Thu January 16, 2025 10:52 AM

    All interesting responses to read. Many of them relate to the pre-word in making sure the data is true, correct, without bias etc. But somehow it still feels that you can never be sure in if the document text you are using are representing the correct facts. You might think they are correct, you might eveb have verified another source, but Internet is full of facts and fiction. So just accept the bias to a certain level. That's why we have developed our solutions to at least get rid of the most obvious biased or old documents. We see this a lot at our users that if it are internally generated documents we trust them, but we don't check them anymore. When humans create the content we aer using for our models, we alwys will mix facts and fiction I guess. But this is a uch better way to support the knowledge workers then let them reinvente each time they have to write a proposal, memorandum or respond to a mortgage request.



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    Oscar Dubbeldam
    CEO / CTO
    Migrato
    Strijen
    +31650734796
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  • 32.  RE: Is it even possible to build AI models without human bias.

    Posted 23 days ago

    While it may not be possible to build AI models entirely free of human bias, it is crucial to acknowledge its presence and take proactive steps to mitigate its impact. Bias in AI is not just a technical challenge but also a societal one, requiring collaboration across disciplines to ensure that AI systems are fair, equitable, and beneficial for all. Your perspective is valid, as bias is often an inherent part of the process. However, the goal should be to minimize its negative effects and strive for fairness and inclusivity in AI development.

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    Taofik Olaoshilo
    Unix and Storage Admin
    Lagos, Nigeria
    First Bank Nigeria
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    TAOFIK OLAOSHILO
    UNIX Administrator
    FIRST BANK NIGERIA
    Lagos
    +2348030675342
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